19 May 2011

A very quick reaction to Obama speech

Obama’s speech was the usual ... a lot of nice words, relatively little behind them, the US administration annexing events to their narrative as they try to stay on top of things. Bouazizi is now an American hero, I guess ...

What’s to like: well, he talked about Bahrain frankly. That’s a change, especially as Feltman was just praising the Bahraini government.

And forgiving Egyptian debts … again good.

And his Israel/Palestine stuff for an American president was … OK, for an American president. The usual blame the Palestinians for scaring the poor, downtrodden Israelis and avoiding the real issues. A dream of papering over Israeli crimes and the Palestinians forgetting all their hopes and dreams.

But on Syria, he said: “President Assad now has a choice: he can lead that transition, or get out of the way. The Syrian government must stop shooting demonstrators and allow peaceful protests, release political prisoners and stop unjust arrests; allow human rights monitors to have access to cities like Daraa, and start a serious dialogue to advance a democratic transition. Otherwise, President Assad and his regime will continue to be challenged from within and isolated abroad.”

The key is for the US to be clear that they are not threatening a neo-colonial regime here; fortunately, there was no mention of military action against Syria. If one thing could make Assad look good, it would be the threat of an American (or Israeli) attack. We know that. Syrians as a whole are an intensely proud and patriotic people. Many who are now protesting would resist that sort of thing.

That would be good to here; yes, yes, that would only encourage Assad, the chorus will claim ... or would it?

After all, the hostility to _us_ claims that we are all driven by foreign regimes.

We aren't;
We are Syrians.

We want a free and democratic Syria, subsevrient to no one.

21 comments:

Omar said...

Yet it is interesting that the Syrian government and Assad specifically are given so much leeway both internally and externally. Internally there seems to be a forgive and forget attitude if you'll just make the correction now. Why is that? Why is the nation so forgiving. Are his actions less heinous than counter parts? I think it is more of a statement on the Syrian people than anything else.

Externally, BHO voiced something similar. Could it be that the world shares the sentiment with the Syrian people? I think it is a unique reaction.

JC said...

I say this in no way to mitigate my support for the popular uprising for democracy in Syria (and I say that emphatically!), but while it's true that the US is not overtly threatening a "neo-colonial" (or more likely imperial) replacement for Assad, we can be sure that the US and its allies are playing their part aggressively in some guise or other to ensure an outcome that is most favorable.

I sincerely hope that those genuinely risking their lives for this revolution in Syria succeed, but rhetoric aside, Obama and his administration (and Israel) are, without a doubt, doing what they can to benefit from Assad's impending demise, and the obvious knock-on effect this will have on wider regional resistance against their imperial order.

See: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/143971

Grazia said...

I totally agree with you

yanti said...

I wouldn't expect it to be otherwise and I don't give a monkey's who benefits, as long as this story has a happy ending.

Micah said...

Amina, what are the 'hopes and dreams' of the Palestinians?

What are the 'real issues'?

JC said...

Micah, I can tell you as a Palestinian (not that you have to be one to understand the obvious). What are their hopes and dreams? To live with freedom and dignity and real equality, for one. Among refugees, the "real issue" is that for many of them, their homes are still standing in the towns and neighbourhoods (my grandmother's home being one) in that part of Palestine that became Israel. The theft was only 63 years ago, and it is these homes to which they wish (and under international law they have the right) to return. Is it so elusive? There are obvious questions as to how this could be done and no easy answers. But if Israelis were willing (in the same vein as SA's Truth and Reconciliation) to negotiate a solution, returning many of these homes, compensation for others, and fundamentally equal democratic rights for all, then things could be very different for both peoples and in the region.

Micah said...

JC-

"To live with freedom and dignity and real equality" will not be determined by the Israelis. Those things will come about as the result of free and democratic Palestinian leadership.

The issue of repatriation of property is more complex and as far as the Israelis (and the UN) are concerned will be tied to repatriation of property owned by Jews that was confiscated after 1948. It bears remembering these Jewish communities predated the Islamic communities.

In the end, you are right to note just compensation will have to be the cornerstone of these negotiations.

Of course, these exchanges are academic unless and until the Palestinian ss a whole agree to a two state solution. Just yesterday, Yunis al Astal, Hamas MP made clear a very different dream than your own. He promoted the notion that Jews were brought to the region so that they might be massacred by Palestinians. This, by a mainstream Palestinian politician. He and his party have made clear that a two state solution and Jes who breathe, for that matter, are not acceptable in any form. It is ironic that these threats can be made at will but the moment the Israelis declare their intent to defend themselves from the promised and impending massacre, the same Palestinians who utter the threats express great outrage.

A Truth and Reconciliation Commission is not a bad idea, for all parties. Years of state sponsored hate, racism and bigotry, repeated ad nauseum in media, school curricula and often preached from the pulpit has taken it's toll.

I have noted many times the biggest victims of Arab tyranny have been the Arab people themselves.

Unless and until there is a unified Palestinian government that will commit to a two state solution, nothing will change.

JC said...

One thing is clear, a two-state solution does not accomodate the right of return, and that issue will not simply vanish.

Micah said...

JC-

If there can be no two state solution it is very likely there will never be an independent Palestinian state.

The Israelis will not agree to an influx of a population who openly advocates religiously mandated genocide.

Why on earth should they?

Anonymus Valesianus said...

Micah, the religiously mandated genocide is not a Muslim or even Christian thing. It's a Torah thing:

Exodus 34:11-14
Leviticus, 26:7-9
1 Samuel 15:2-3

amongst others. There is talk of exterminating the "Amalekites", and that is rabbinical teaching in many yeshivas today. Amalekites are equated with Arabs.

So, please, quit lying and trying to disguise your love and loyalty of a state based on the concept of a master-race and genocide. We see through your rhetoric and your desire to undermine the concepts Amina and JC put forward:

equality of ALL people, no special priveliges for a particular ethnicity.

And quit with the crocodile tears and pretending to support a group you obviously despise and look down on as a lesser breed.

Toyin O. said...

Great post, thanks for sharing.

JC said...

"The Israelis will not agree to an influx of a population who openly advocates religiously mandated genocide."

Let's get real, true, there are some Palestinians in Hamas and other groups who may call for such a preposterous thing, but the majority of Palestinians (yes, even those who elected Hamas - something you may never be able to understand) just want to live their own lives.

A Palestinian "state" (statelet!) is just a euphemism for Bantustan. I know, it's a cliched argument but it is no less true. What is "free and democratic" about that??

But as you say, in the medium to long-term, it's not a question of what the Israelis will allow. Do you remember, only recently, Palestinian refugees walking home in their hundreds? Next time it might be more, who knows. But if Israel had any sense of how to ensure the security of its people, it would make these concessions now, and if it did so on the terms of ending its apartheid, the myopic conservative goons on all sides would be drowned out into silence.

Micah said...

'Something I may not understand'?

Why is that? Why are we to assume that decades of state sponsored hate for decades have had no lasting impact? Why would the Palestinians who have been subjected to this level of malevolence are somehow different than the populations of other Arab countries who express these same kind of sentiments? How are the Palestinians different?

The West has spent billions and billions o dollars to support Palestinian efforts, infrastructure and schools- and yet Saddam Hussein who gave the families of suicide bombers a few thousand dollars is still revered as a hero.

A recent Pew Poll indicated that almost 40 percent of Palestinians unreservedly supported Islamic fundamentalism, while 25 percent rejected fundamentalism.

Do, I believe you or the Pew Poll? Or does Pew 'not understand' either?

Further, the poll states "Palestinian Muslims, however, remain an outlier on this question: 68% say suicide attacks in defense of Islam can often or sometimes be justified, a level of support essentially unchanged from 2007. And in Egypt, support for suicide bombing is actually on the rise -- currently, 28% believe it can be justified, up from 8% in 2007."

Do I believe that 68%v number is accurate? No. But I also believe something is very wrong with a society where people will willingly say that.

Both the Israelis and Palestinians have painted themselves into a corner with no exit strategy in sight.

Both nations need new leadership. Neither sides can allow the agendistas to control both the message and the narrative.

JC said...

I keep returning to debate with you only because someone may actually read your comments and be convinced by your misinformation.

I could quote some poll statistics to you that indicate an overwhelming level of racism in Israeli society, in school curriculums etc and a desire to continue appropriating land and to remain segregated. You may like to spin the myth of thousands of years of Jewish-Arab animosity but let's stick to the issue of Palestine.

Palestinians overwhelmingly lived peacefully with a Jewish minority in Palestine before 48 (or at least before Zionist militias were blowing up buildings and machinating a colonial take-over).

A 2011 poll shows that the majority of Israelis, 54 percent, believe that they should annex all Israeli settlements in "Judea and Samaria” (the West Bank) even if Palestinians declare a unilateral state. What does that tell you about Israel's desire for even allowing for a "Palestinian state", let alone a single democracy for all?

I do believe polls are changeable, or at least the phenomenon they gauge are, and in the case of our "two sides", it's much more likely that a
seriously downtrodden people will overwhelmingly relinquish their militant "anti-Israeli" views if indeed a serious and just breakthrough were made. One only has to find other similar historical examples to see this.

As for those who have a vested interest in remaining at war, those who couldn't contemplate relinquishing an exclusively Jewish State for real peace and equality, well they may not so easily relinquish their views or their practices for that matter.

That's it from me now!

Micah said...

JC-

I posted facts, not opinion- unless of course you believe Pew to be not credible.

While I appreciate your opinions, they do fly in the face of the facts presented.

Now, if yo9u have more recent and updated poll information to present, please do so, citing poll sources and relevant dates. I am open to new information.

You stated Palestinians lived peacefully with Jews in the region for a long time. You also stated things changed when Zionists 'started blowing things up'. Mostly. what they blew up were British targets, not Arab. Violence had been perpetrated against Jews for a long while, both in Palestine and the Arab countries. This isn't 'secret' or the result of a 'conspiracy;.

Further, even if your erroneous remarks had even the minutest of substance, the level of antisemitism in the Arab world has became monumental.

Consider the following: "92-Year-Old Palestinian Woman: Palestinians Should Massacre the Jews Like We Massacred Them in Hebron". These remarks were made without shame but rather, with pride. The video is readily available.

These, and other sentiments are not political in nature. They are the result of institutionalized racism, bigotry and hate, decades in the making. I do not blame the Arab populations. They have been used and abused by one tyrant after another.

"HAMAS! HAMAS! JEWS TO THE GAS!" is not a political expression, nor are the hundreds of other similar sentiments prevalent in the Arab world (my favorites are 'We'll finish what Hitler started' and 'Allah in Heaven, Hitler on earth'). There is no moral equivalence between in the characterization of opponents in the Middle East.

As an aside, a Syrian friend once bitterly noted to me the real naqbah has between audio and video tape. He notes 'We can no longer hide what we have become, from the world or from ourselves'.

Further, I am perplexed. Is not Hamas a proponent of an 'Islamic state' in Palestine? Are you equally offended by that as you are by Israel? And why do so many Palestinians (a majority)state they prefer to live under Israeli authority than under Palestinian rule? There are many pols to that effect- here is one.

http://pechterpolls.com/?p=317

While I appreciate your opinions JC, they do not stand up under factual scrutiny.

cprincess said...

"JC said...
"The Israelis will not agree to an influx of a population who openly advocates religiously mandated genocide."

Let's get real, true, there are some Palestinians in Hamas and other groups who may call for such a preposterous thing, but the majority of Palestinians (yes, even those who elected Hamas - something you may never be able to understand) just want to live their own lives"


My point exactly…Thank you for articulating that so well …you would think the Palestinians are a race of suicide bombers to read some comments when the vast majority are just trying to live their lives..
The fact that Hamas got voted in in Gaza shows how desperate the people were… they were so sick of Fatah and how useless and corrupt they were...

JC said...

cprincess, nice to find some sanity here (apart from Amina's posts of course!).

Micah, your blind reliance on crass stereotypes that paint Palestinian society as a monolith, is glaring but not surprising and I have heard it all before. Have you bothered to go to the West Bank (let alone to Gaza) to really gauge what people want, in all of their complex diversity? Cprincess says it well, you must just see all of Palestinian society as "Jew haters" and would-be killers. Well if you took the trip I've suggested you might be in for a shock - a shock to your Orientalist perceptions at least.

In Amina's most recent post, you write that "We in the west talk a lot about freedom and democracy. Unlike you, our generation never had to fight for it." Well in Palestine they are having to fight for it under extremely dire and brutal circumstances, and they ushered it in for the first time in 2006, but the result, predictably was not of the West' liking: Hamas. No surprise there of course. But if you really want to understand the Palestinians who voted for them, let alone Hamas itself, you might do well to do some research that goes beyond a flimsy quote. I could make far more substantiated claims about the nature of Israeli society based on a larger catalogue of quotes than you could hope to find. You want to understand the issues? To understand the wider struggle being waged in the region? Well then step out of your ivory tower.

Micah said...

JC-

I am confused by your remarks.

Israelis of the left, right and center all stipulate to a Palestinians state.

Where are the Palestinians who will stipulate to Israel as a neighbor?

Hamas has made clear their complete rejection of Israel. They have made clear in no uncertain terms they will agree to a 'Hudna', a ceasefire. only, reserving the date and time of their choosing to pick up arms and employ violence against Israel.

As for the 'brutal occupation', that is no more than a concocted narrative in the same way Israel concocts their own narrative. The West Bank, under the PA, has experienced record economic growth. Ramallah has experienced a building boom. In wealthy areas, apartments can cost $200,000 or more.

The PA border with Israel is relatively quiet and thus the boom. Saudis, Qataris and others have all invested the West Bank.

Gaza of course is different, with Hamas using the area to launch rockets and terror attacks.

Nevertheless, the 'brutal occupation' has also seen outstanding growth in Gaza. The IMF reports 16% growth in Gaza (see Ali Abunimah). Nevertheless, unemployment is still an issue.

Lastly, Palestinian 'resistance' is not about freedom. In fact, it is about something very different, certainly in the case of Hamas.

The underlying conditions for peace for the past 50 years has been clear:

Cessation of terror
Secure Borders
Diplomatic recognition

Which of those things have been too onerous a burden for the past 50 years?

As for your remarks about 'quotes', I do agree many less than savory things have been said by many Israelis, as individuals. This is very different from Palestinian state sponsored bigotry, etc.

Lastly, I have stated many times I do firmly believe the majority of Palestinians are not genocidal lunatics, notwithstanding the best efforts of the most radical of elements. The same can be said of most Iranians.

Like the Palestinians, they are held hostage by tyrants and despots. Unfortunately, we have to deal with the regime that wields power- and that power can be mighty thing.

I am curious- are you a supporter of Hamas? Do you want to see a two state solution?

JC said...

No to both of your questions at the end. But let's agree to disagree, we obviously do quite radically.

yanti said...

I don't think you do disagree so radically. In fact you both seem to be saying more or less the same thing.

jessy said...

yanti is right.
You see to agree on all but JC's claim that the blunt racism shown by the Palestinian voters is a reaction to the Patach.

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